cargill’s latest at bible and interpretation: forget about noah’s ark; there was no worldwide flood

bible and interpretation has posted my latest offering entitled, ‘forget about noah’s ark; there was no worldwide flood.’ the article addresses the problems stemming from many evangelicals and other fundamentalists who read the primordial history narratives of israel as literal and ‘historical.’ the article demonstrates how there physically could not have been a worldwide flood that covered all landmasses in the past 10,000 years (which is needed to argue for noah’s ark). the article was prompted by the latest group to claim to have discovered noah’s ark: noah’s ark ministries international.

give it a read.

39 Responses

  1. You realize, Dr Cargill, that this will be taken as a confession that you are part of Satan’s Secular Humanist Conspiracy to lead people into Damnation?

    Or that you’re just volunteering to have a Flesh-to-Pile-of-Rocks cast on you by the Faithful?

    Whenever YEC or Arkology comes into play, Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory logic is not far behind. Any and all evidence against The Conspiracy is Disinformation planted by The Conspiracy; lack of evidence for The Conspiracy is Proof The Conspiracy Can Silence Anyone. Add Christianese to the mix, and the ante ups to literally Cosmic proportions — “Blessed are ye who are Persecuted for Righteousness’ sake…”

    Because there is no way to convince a True Believer. Especially a True Believer who has built All on a foundation of hyperliteralism and YEC. If there was no Worldwide Flood and literal Noah, the Bible is False and so is his Eternal Salvation. At which point, it becomes Survival.

    The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.

    Bob did Christians plant fossil creatures at the top
    of mountains ???
    The worldwide sedimentary layers can only be laid down by a worldwide flood. There is no such thing
    as local columns of water 1000’s of feet high.

  3. Or sedimentary layers would be laid down in the usual manner, and continental drift results in uplift to where the sedimentary layers get folded into the tops of mountains.

    The Atlantic Ocean gets a few inches wider each year. Remember the recent eruption in Iceland? That’s just the part of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge that breaks the surface. And as the widening Atlantic pushes the North American plate across the Pacific, sweeping up whatever terrains are in its path, you get fold mountains like the Sierras and all the 45-degree sedimentary layers in the Coastal Ranges I see every day on my way home from work, when the OC toll road cuts through the hills near Saddleback.

    But of course that takes longer than 6014 years, so It Must Be Satanic Deception.

    Bob did Christians plant fossil creatures at the top
    of mountains ???
    The worldwide sedimentary layers can only be laid down by a worldwide flood. There is no such thing
    as local columns of water 1000′s of feet high.
    Get real. Have you never heard of plate tectonics? If not, stop commenting immediately and get yourself an education, then come back and correct your own comment.

    No excuse for bad science, dude. Makes you look baaaad.

  5. The people who know the least about this word are always the ones that think they know it all.

    If there was a flood, why do we still have fish? They’d all have died. A worldwide sea of *brackish* water would kill almost all the fishes in the world. And all the insects as well.

    However, no christian bible literalist can be convinced of anything, so there’s that.

  6. Brian – I already answered this – fish can move into lower salinity – eg fresh water sharks. Billions of fish WERE killed – see fossil record. If the underground water caused most of the flood it could also be saline.
    Salmon and trout can move from salt to fresh water.

    This is never been a problem for creationism or evolutionism – you need to read a few genuine creationists websites and come up to date with your arguments – then offer intelligent criticism .

  7. plate tectonics, pangaea, geological fault activity causing the uplifting of land from lower levels to higher levels, volcanic activity, and glacial erosion over hundreds of millions of years – all of it responsible for the way our earth looks. it explains how sedimentary layers that were once near sea level are now at high altitudes. and it happens all the time everywhere. it just takes a while.

    now, is your question really how do sedimentary layers appear on mountains without a worldwide flood? really? a worldwide flood supposedly 6000 years ago is the only possible explanation for sedimentary layers on mountains?

    and i need the education??

    and who said anything about fossils? i’m asking what perfectly preserved wooden rooms are doing at high elevations (if, in fact, that’s where these are. they haven’t told us where this is, have they…)


    The whole of geology proves a worlwide flood.

    80% of earth sedimentary
    fossil sea creatures at the top of mountains
    billions of fossil fish etc and animals suddenly killed by sediments.
    Layer upon layer of sediments laid down by water just as in a flood – look at Mt St Helens.
    Many floodstories throughout the world going back into history.
    etc etc etc

    You do not get columns of water thousands of feet high

    What more evidence do you need

    Did Christians plant fossil shells at the top of Everest.

  9. btw, just a note – i don’t approve comments with ads in them. don’t use this space to sell things. that is all.

    “and the mountains went up and the valleys went down” Psalms
    Plus flood sediment is needed to make a fossil even
    at the top of a mountain.

    Bob – with trilobites sticking out of the top of Mount Everest – your slow uplift was debunked long ago
    Google up :-

    “Limestone and Trilobite Fossils on Mt Everest”
    Edmund Hillary said the top three miles was full
    of closed shells without erosion.

    One reason is that there is no wear and tear for say
    a 40 million year uplift.

    Plus It is still evidence of a flood since all the shells
    are in the closed position.

    A fossil can only form with a flood creating enough sediment.
    Every mountain range in the world has sea fossils
    AND land fossils – so I suppose they were just conveniently swimming around awaiting the 40 million year uplift.

    SMOOTHLY CURVED and FOLDED SEDIMENTARY LAYERS show sediment was still soft went the mountains went up.
    So the mountains went up quick before the sediments could harden.

    Pangea happened about 300 years after the flood plenty of time for animals to spread – and insects Saint

    Plus fossil trees cutting through ” supposed millions of years of strata ” prove the sediments were laid down quick.

  11. ‘The whole of geology proves a worlwide flood.’

    uh, ya, um…. wha? seriously. what?


    charles, i’m having trouble finding some published scientific research documenting fish fossils at high altitudes. i keep hearing claims like, ‘billions of fossil fish have been found at high altitudes,’ but i’m not finding it in the published research. would you be so kind as to point me to some of the research from which you are deriving your arguments? i’m specifically looking for documented cases of fish fossils less than 6000 years old at high elevations. (these would be the conditions necessary to support a biblical flood.) if you can supply me with the articles’ author’s names and the journal title, i can look them up here at ucla. thanx. -bc

  12. again, i need authors names and journal/book titles. if you can supply me with the published data, i’ll do the rest. thank you. -bc

  13. Bob – If a fossil trilobite can be on a mountain why cant
    a bit of wood from the Ark.

  14. again, i’ll be needing authors names and article/book titles of the evidence you’re citing.
    keep in mind that peer-review journals and professional scientists carry more credibility than internet sources and the reports of early ‘explorers.’
    thank you. – bc

  15. Headless – you were casting doubt on Satan’s existence. Its just what he wants.

    Google up Dr Maurices Rawlings the heart surgeon
    who brings people back from the dead – he was an athiest but is now a Christian – when patients told him
    of the places they went – some good most not so good. The experiences are too structured and vivid to be caused by brain damage.

    An even more frightening one is “23 minutes in Hell”.
    see you tube interview or buy book. It is the fact that
    mercy has finished and that’s you for all eternity that
    is the fear factor – hope is ended forever.

    It sure scared me and I am a Christian.

    I cant see anyone looking at the above and it not having
    an effect.

    ” Eternity is printed on men’s hearts”

  16. Bob just google up ” fish fossils at the top of mountains” there are hundreds or thousands of papers. Seem like good scientists to me

  17. Charles Allen, trilobites all died, went extinct, 250 million years ago. Way before the dinosaurs went extinct, even.

    Are you a ‘young earther?’ This is the only explanation I can think of for you insisting in the things that you’re insisting on.

    You must understand, that it is pointless for anyone to explain these things to you. You’re already convinced that you know the answers, and that we just “think we’re so smart, don’t we?” You’re already convinced that you know more about science than the people that go through decades of schooling in it and spend the rest of their lives investigating it, so really Charles, what’s the point. IN your fantasy we all suddenly realize we’re wrong and then we all fall down on our knees and beg for forgiveness from Jesus, and in our fantasy, you develop a mind.

  18. lol. actually, no. you’ve claimed to have evidence to support these claims. i can google. i’d like you to provide me with one or two names of authors who have published articles is credible journals claiming to have found fish fossils only 6000 years old on the tops of mountains. anything else (including ‘googling up fish fossils at the top of mountains’ is sheer hearsay and speculation. evidence and facts are the coin of the realm. i’ll look them up. all i need from you are the names of the authors you are citing as your evidence.


  19. Bob – how would you date the fish and I never said
    “billions” of fossils at the top of mountains – but fossil fish such as trilobites . Just google fossil fish found on mountains and I think there are thousands of sites.
    There are billions of fossils but not all at the tops of mountains but is you counted the trilobites and shells
    it could come to more than a billion – why not just look at the sites – there are thousands – some peer reviewed some not.

  20. Brian – who told you that trilobites went extinct 250 million years ago – where do you get this information.
    It is guesswork to fit in with the long timescale.
    Google up ” Limestone and trilobite fossils on Mt Everest ” and you will see your data does not line up.

  21. Brian – It is obvious I am a young earther just like Jesus.
    Polonium rings in granite prove that the earth was never molten on the surface which proves young earth.

    Have a look on the internet at Polonium rings .

  22. names, charles, names. googling ‘fish fossils on tops of mountains’ is not research. journal articles in credible journals is. numbers and data are research. specific things, not generalizations and speculation. i’d like the names of the authors you’re citing and the journals where they are published.

    you are basing your entire case on naming things like ‘polonim rings’ and ‘fish fossils’, but not citing research. my questions is: where is the research?

    every time you don’t provide it, you make my point. bc

  23. Bob – I have a family of five and a job – you can google
    up papers better than me .

  24. Bob – if I see a fossil shell on Northumberland beach
    does that mean I need to look up peer reviewed double
    blind research papers before I accept it.
    I will trust that Sir Edmund Hilary saw trilobite fossils.
    You are turning pedantic with “proper” journals which
    just tend to go with the scientific flow.

    Was the Piltdown man fraud or the Coelacanth fish being the ancestor of humans peer reviewed in a journal – Yes – hah hah

  25. CIRCULAR REASONING VERY SCIENTIFIC AND PEER REVIEWED – The fossil is dated according to where it is found and the sediments are dated in accordance with the type of fossil found.
    Bob – since the whole sedimentary dating system is based on circular reasoning with no evidence whatever how would we know what age the fossil is
    ie less than 6000 years –

    However now that some things in the geologic column are being teated for C14 some very young dates are coming up.

  26. Charles Allen, beg pardon? Trilobites aren’t even fish, not even close to fish. More like primitive crustaceans. And they all died off 250 million yrears ago, regardless of your polonium rings or whatever idiocy you’re swallowing as fact.

    See, when you look at things to prove your god is real, and not just to see what the things are, you make stupid mistakes. You’re biased; so when you look all you see is the silliness written by people just like you.

    It’s difficult not to get angry at people like you. You’re distorting science for your own wishful thinking.

  27. again, you’re providing no evidence, just babbling about what you think you. this string is closed.

  28. again, no evidence, no more discussion. we discuss issues with evidence both in science and here on this blog. bc

  29. Bob – I have a family of five and a job – you can google up papers better than me .


    lol. so do i. you come up with some real evidence and i’ll start approving your comments again. you’re wasting my and my readers’ time. -bc


    TalkOrigins debunks the PO rings in granite. They’re not even caused by polonium.

    Evangelical christians make sh!t up for God. Sad.

  31. Bob Cargill,

    I admire how you deal with people who try to subvert the conversation to their religious pseudoscientific claims.

    I could learn a thing or two. I tend to let them frustrate me too much, although I have gotten better.

    Thanks for the good example. I have to always remember that speaking out in anger makes me look as bad as the ‘other guy.’

    After all, if our side is the rational one, I’d best act it. Makes sense.

  32. hey thanx. and thanx for the feedback. :)

  33. Most of the people who contributed including yourself
    came out with the usual cliches and no back up papers at all apart from T.O. which is blatantly evolutionary.

    So you and your fans have done exactly what you have
    accused me of. You have not done much homework
    if you cannot argue a point from first principles.

    One day you will know the truth

  34. You’re welcome.

    When I first started to blog I used to frequently ‘lose it’ with people. It’s been an education.

    Recently I’ve gotten much better, as I realized that my anger is still self-righteous wrath, even if I happen to actually be right. So as usual, the enemy is the ego.

    So once I got all that, I started to realize how that anger made ME look to THEM.

    I’d rather be on the cool, rational, level-headed side.

  35. the truth has already set me free…. (at least the evidence has.)

  36. A believer canot listen to a fact when it displaces a belief.

    So what’s the point?

    All the scientific evidence is out there.

    Here, check this out:

    This is a pretty good science site where any christian can go and simply type in their question and see what science has to say about it.

    Give it a whirl. And perhaps it would be a good idea to not ask questions here or elsewhere that are already answered there. It’s just extra work for everybody.

    They demolish the polonium ring thingy rather nicely, as noted. Check out your other comments and questions. You may not like the answers, but you won’t be able to refute them, that’s for sure.

  37. Brian
    I thought I was blanked out – are you saying you know
    more than the cutting edge ID scientists and Physicists
    in Lee Strobel’s book “The case for a creator”.

    Polonium rings were not studied by creationists – they
    were reputable scientists – everyone knows that T.O. has only an evolutionary viewpoint.

    ” If they will not believe the Books of Moses they will
    not believe an angel in front of them ” that was the sentence.
    You dont even realise that the sedimentary layers
    were thought undatable since they assumed the C14
    had disappeared.
    Now C14 is showing up which is impossible if we are talking about millions of years.

    See what T.O. is saying about this Brian.

    PS – I sited more references than all of you but why cant you argue something like curved strata from first principles ?

  38. did i just see a lee strobel reference?…..

  39. Watch this. The organization head speaks for himself regarding the ark.

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